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Continue to support client-side Java

If memory serves, I believe to have read somewhere (can't remember where) that HCL is planning to remove client-side Java support from Notes 11 or a later version of Notes. Hopefully I'm wrong with my assumption. Anyway, just in case: I believe it would be a very bad idea to remove client-side Java, since this would break a lot of existing Notes applications; i.e., all apps that make use of Java applets and/or LS2J code.

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  • Apr 10 2019
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  • Avatar40.8f183f721a2c86cd98fddbbe6dc46ec9
    Guest commented
    11 Apr 08:19

    Hopefully they will carve out this bloat off the product.

    Java is still a PITA outside the Domino World, so why should someone use this PITA in Domino?

    No application will ever run in the Mac Universe. So stop hammering nails (JAVA) for whatever problem needs to be solved.

  • Avatar40.8f183f721a2c86cd98fddbbe6dc46ec9
    Guest commented
    11 Apr 17:27

    Re. previous comment -- I couldn't agree less.

    First of all, "why should someone use this PITA in Domino", as you put it: I'm not sure I understand. How would XPages work w/o Java?

    Now let's assume you were confusing *Domino* with *Notes*, and what you were really trying to say was that the Notes Client should get rid of Java. Well, even then I couldn't agree less. Why is a Notes Client useful at all? The one (and probably the only relevant) differentiator of Notes is that it is able to run Notes applications, many of which were written over the past 3 decades. Yes, the Notes UI should be modernized, no doubt. But by giving up backward compatibility and breaking existing applications one would render Notes irrelevant, I'm afraid. Why stick with Notes, if the purpose is to develop new apps from scratch? There are other platforms out there that can do the same job, and some can do it even better than Notes.

    And yes, there are quite a few useful things that Java can do in a Notes application. Ever tried to implement network I/O or cryptography stuff in LotusScript or Formula language? Or a graphical representation of resource schedules in a timeline? I've seen a lot of sophisticated and smart Notes apps that make use of Java in the client. Giving up that potential would be a big loss, I believe.

    Finally, regarding "No application will ever run in the Mac Universe": Maybe you are right. But then on the other hand, if I look at our customer base of 30,000+ users, I'm seeing maybe 1 out of 1,000 using a Mac. And the few who are can always run Notes for Windows in a VM. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

  • Avatar40.8f183f721a2c86cd98fddbbe6dc46ec9
    Guest commented
    15 Apr 09:43

    @11 Apr 17:27

    I have to admit, that your position regarding the backwards compatibility has one point of truth.

    But after thinking about that again, I believe that this backward compatibility is one obstacle that led us to the path we are currently trying to get off. We are stuck in old (not only java) program code and we need to make way to much in order to modernize existing applications - honestly, for some of those it's more efiicient to create them from scratch again.

    If there are (and will be) more stable LotusScript routines and methods for network I/O, crypthographic or backend HTTP stuff ... it would be a good strategy to remove the java code and use the "real platform independent" embedded programming language - not only for security reasons.

    Your are right, that there are several applications out there, that were written over the (you name it how many) past decades. But this is exactly the problem why users will refuse to accept this old applications, because of the clumsy frontend and usability.

    The last thing is the Mac Universe. Sure, you can install a Windows VM. But for decision makers - and there are plenty of them using this hip-tongue-lickingly sweet fruit - it's more cool to have all things out of the apple-box.

  • Avatar40.8f183f721a2c86cd98fddbbe6dc46ec9
    Guest commented
    16 Apr 08:18

    @15 Apr 09:43

    Alright, point taken.

    Still I wonder whether it will ever be possible [with reasonable effort] to push LotusScript to the point that it can replace Java and all the cool things that can be done with it.

    My main concern is actually that applications which make use of Java applets to present users with a friendly, intuitive and interactive UI will become dysfunctional if Java support is removed from the client. Rewriting those apps would cost man-months -- if not years in some cases. I doubt the owners of such apps would be willing to make this important investment in a platform whose long-term stability cannot be taken for granted, to put it mildly. And by the way, it would require the Notes client to become a full-blown html5 and Javascript platform. In other words, one potential source of overhead (Java) would have to be replaced by another.

    Talking about overhead, I'm not really convinced Java is such a big burden on the client. Eclipse probably is, but Java? (Remember, Java was around in Notes long before the client became Eclipse based.)

    Regarding the Mac Universe, I'm afraid my previous comment was a bit off the mark. Of course Notes for MacOS does have its merits. AFAIK version 10.0.1 of Notes for MacOS even comes with Java agent support. So why not expand it a little to also support Java applets?